The Slutwalk heads east

  
Struggle of new feminist movement highlights east-west differences 

WOMEN DON’T GET enough respect from men. So they’re organizing protests where they take off their clothes and walk around in public.

Huh? That’s what I thought too.

A feminist friend was telling me about the Slutwalk protests, a series of marches taking place in the Americas, Europe and Australia.

“I just don’t see this working in Asia,” I told her.

The woman, who did not want her name printed, explained the movement started in Canada after a police officer advised women not to go to dangerous parts of town “”dressed like sluts” (prostitutes or worse).

 

A statement that would be taken as so self-evident that it was barely worth uttering in the East was greeted with shocked fury in the West.  As Rudyard said, east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet…
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Now there may be one or more guys reading this (or, to be honest, writing this) who are intrigued at the thought of their female colleagues stripping off and marching around.

The bad news for us is that the movement is failing to get much traction in Asia.

There is a small Slutwalk branch in New Delhi, but it is headed by a young woman who has just returned from Canada, so feels like a non-Asian import. Hindustan Times commentator Seema Goswami described it as “the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard”.
*
In my neighborhood, it was left to a male friend named Michael to try to get something going.

“My friends and I really don’t respect you ladies enough,” he said. “You really need to organize a Slutwalk to teach us a lesson.”

I backed him up: “Yeah, but don’t start until I get a fresh memory card for my camera.”

The women were not fooled for a moment. They argued that it could only have been invented by a sneaky guy planting an idea in the head of a gullible female.

Woman: “You guys don’t respect us: you’re only interested in our bodies.”

Guy: “In that case, you should protest. Why not remove your clothing to make your points perfectly clear?”
*
 
Now let’s not be mistaken. We’re all in favor of everything the feminists say, especially this movement.

But the truth must be faced. Female emancipation in the East is lagging badly.

Proof: The revolting Salwa al Mutairi, a female politician from Kuwait, recently suggested that her government purchase female prisoners of war from other countries for use as sex slaves by Kuwaiti men.

My prediction: this woman is not going to be named Feminist of the Year any time soon.
*

Similarly ruling themselves out of the running is a group of ladies In Malaysia who have launched an Asia-wide association called the Obedient Wives Club.

My wife has no inclination to join up, nor do any of her friends.

(None of them would qualify anyway, he said, running away and locking the door to prevent comebacks.)
*
With the above-pictured Eastern women letting down the side, guys must redress the balance.

Last week, police in Nagpur, India, reported that they had solved the mystery of a spate of 60 robberies in which a burglar took tiny amounts of cash but left expensive jewelry behind. Sanhay Kulmethre, 29, explained that he would never rob a woman, as it would be immoral. (Apparently he had no moral issues with breaking into people’s homes and taking male-owned cash.)

At least there’s one gentleman left on this planet.
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ON OTHER MATTERS…

This is from Paul Fox on getting angry with your computer, inspired by the previous post, about the laptop which took over a conference:

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In answer to Bianca’s question, I am off on Friday to a rural part of Uganda, outside Kampala, with family and friends. We’re going to help build an orphanage for children orphaned by AIDs.

TS, you’ll be pleased to know (or perhaps not) that the whole tradition of Christians going places to be grilled alive has kinda gone out of fashion. It’s passe. Instead of proselytizing, these days we go and build homes and clinics and hospitals etc. Wait. I just remembered that they warned us we’ll be toiling on a building site in Africa with no air-cons, so we probably WILL end up being grilled alive.

Oh well, it’s all for a good cause. Regular readers know that cruel Mr Jam never lets the kids sit in front of the TV or on resort beaches during holidays, but cruelly makes them go and DO something. At Easter, my daughter was dispatched to build a classroom in rural Thailand. And remember our attempted Christmas giveaway?

But there’s no internet access or phone access where we are going so this site will be v quiet the first two weeks of July.

But don’t abandon us for long. In other news, there’s been some progress on a TV deal in North America, and the book version of this site is with a top US literary agency, so there’ll be some interesting days ahead. Watch this space!
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Technorati Tags: obedient wives club,slutwalk,salma al mutairi

Comments

[Nury]

Liftie, I had a phone conference last week when I couldn't tell who was talking, so I am dying to hear your idea of how to solve this problem...

[zul]

yr comment about iran's female dress and others is so offensive.
iran and islam has their own dress code. so, pls respect.
r u expecting other people or religion to follow what u think best to u?
if u wanna know more about islam, just read the quran translation. it won't make u convert to islam.

[Jason]

There is a daily slut walk in Hong Kong, it's on Lockhart Road.

Regarding barbecuing Christians, the meat would probably be pretty gamey. I will stick to chicken.

Good luck on your adventure Nury, but please leave the Bibles at home and just build the orphanage because it is the right thing to do. :)

[Nury]

TS, your suggestion that people who love Apple products show activity in the same brain area as worshippers rings true.
But I remember reading (either in Science or Nature or Time) that all humans are hot-wired to worship, so whether its Apple or Buddha or Man Utd or Justin Bieber, we've all got that bit of brain devoted to adoring a large external entity.
Apparently it evolved because focusing on "virtue" (or an anthropomorphic representation of virtue) triggered various factors (social cohesion, drop in crime) that caused societies to grow.
These days, of course, things are different. Not sure how worshipping gadgets or Jay-Z encourages us to commit fewer crimes....

[rafanjr]

...i don't get it.

[grandpa]

", we've all got that bit of brain devoted to adoring a large external entity."
Like a cold beer in the hot sun, maybe?????

[Jason]

Is anyone else strangely attracted to the young woman with the purple hair?

[Chamin]

Some ladies are large entities, but I am not sure of most guys are adoring them :-p

[Angela]

Ironic that a woman who demands to be treated as the equal of man is called a FEMINIST. When a woman becomes a man she loses her femininity so she should be called a MASCULINIST.

The label Feminist should be reserved for women who embrace their feminine side, or men who do...like in New York :-)

I don't think man and woman are meant to be equal. Physically we complement each other, like toothbrush and toothpaste, like camera and film, like justin bieber and his fans, etc.

[Jason]

Angela have you finished the cleaning before getting online? ;) Just kidding.

But one of my fav jokes...

On a Trans-Atlantic flight, a plane passes through a severe storm. The turbulence is awful, and things go from bad to worse when one wing is struck by lightning. One woman in particular loses it. Screaming,she stands up in the front of the plane. "I'm too young to die!" she wails. Then she yells, "Well, if I'm going to die, I want my last minutes on earth to be memorable! No one has ever made me really feel like a woman! Well I've had it! Is there ANYONE on this plane who can make me feel like a WOMAN??"

For a moment there is silence. everyone has forgotten their own peril, and they all stare, riveted, at the desperate woman in the front of the plane. Then, a man stands up in the rear of the plane. "I can make you feel like a woman," he says. He's gorgeous! Tall, built, with flowing black hair and jet black eyes, he starts to walk slowly up the aisle, unbuttoning his shirt one button at a time. No one moves. The woman is breathing heavily in anticipation as the strange man approaches. He removes his shirt. Muscles ripple across his chest as he reaches her, and extends the arm holding his shirt to the trembling woman, and whispers:
"Iron this."

[Angela]

I will not go so far as to say I love apple products but this morning I had apple for breakfast, typed on my apple notebook, made a call on my apple iphone and ordered apple struddle dessert which I washed down with apple juice. But I only like apple. Not love. That I reserve for people ;-)

TS's worship theory is true. I do worship a large external entity of apple pie topped with vanilla ice cream. Yummy!

[Bianca Schlimm]

Iron man, how cruel can you get??

Rafan, why you hide behind burka? how can you eat? what do you knot get? I'll coach you.

[rafanjr]

....oh Bianca, i'm a "jason-hated" Christian, and a chauvinist pig according to a feminists.
...and at first i didn't get what zul was saying but now i know that s/he might have posted a comment on the wrong post.

[Jason]

I don't hate Christians. I just think they have been woefully misinformed.

[Nury]

I think adoring things is just part of life.
We all adore at least one other human being -- I can't even imagine what it would be like to live life without adoring anyone.
I remember when I was 17 I would fall in love every 10 minutes...

And don't worry about Jason. He comes across as a tiny bit less tolerant than the rest of us sometimes, but he's actually charming in real life, and his wonderful wife has the sort of simple deep faith that to my mind is the highest state of being that a human can achieve. We should strive to be more like her....

[Bianca Schlimm]

Rafan: so what? I'm a tight-arsed Prussian lady, even babtized

Elvis would wince when they called him KING because he thought only Jesus was king.

[Jason]

Me intolerant? Hmmmm. I just think people should be informed, especially about their religion if they consider it a deeply important part of their life, rather than taking the doctrines they've been told since birth purely on "faith."

Christianity as it is today is not even close to its origins, but most of the lay faithful don't know it. But the clergy does:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf

[Jason]

I think it was Bianca that asked on a previous column what my book was about. Basically it's about exactly what I said above. A history of the evolution (oooh how fundamentalist Christians hate that word!) of monotheistic doctrines and dogma and how they've been totally warped over time.

[Bianca Schlimm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APxXwp23hi0

jason you might like it

so what is the book called?

I don't think this is only monotheism...always words are given over and changed according to what the /priest/ needed or wanted or thought right at that moment? asterix knows this

[Jason]

A little hard to understand what the guy is saying, but I liked the part about the mass media broadcasting if Jesus came today.

The book is still a work in progress and the title is subject to change.

Sure all religions are subject to some doctrinal changes, but Judaism has morphed somewhat significantly from its origin and Christianity is nowhere near what it was in the beginning.

[D.]

I personally divide the world into the good, tolerant people who have a generous attitude to other people's beliefs, and the intolerant people who think they only they are right and who sneer at other's people beliefs.

Nuri who I've heard described as a Chrislim and Karuna who is a Hindu (I thinkg?) belong to the first group. Harold Camping and Jason belong to the second group, dogmatic and superior.

sorry Mr Jam we can't all just laugh off the snidey comments like you can. Apologies for not signing this one!

[Nury]

Dear D., I agree that a generous attitude to other people's views is a good thing to have.
But I'm all for free speech,so let people say what they like.
It's not what people say, but what they do that counts--and that's a saying that exists in every religion and in non-religious humanism!
As for me, I've been almost everything: atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc. People who know me well know what my conclusions are, but it's fair to say that there's definitely good in all of them...

[Nury]

Dear Zul, I've read the Qu'ran, and i think it's a wonderful book. I also love the hadiths.

[TS]

Without having done any research, or even have any qualifications to do such research, I have a theory of the "hard-wired" belief syndrome.

We are clearly flock animals, we thrive in a tribe. In flocks, or tribes, it's the elders who rule because they have a lifetime of experiences that is useful to pass on to the younger generation. The success of a flock depends on hard earned skills being passed from one generation the next.
This is where the in-built respect for elders comes from. Also this is why God or Gods portrayed as old men is so attractive to people.
Old silverback has the respect of his flock, but many tribes of today have learned to read and write from hippies.

[Lift Lurker]

I come across technology called voice recognition system. This allow machine to recognize your voice and remember who you are.

I cross it with technology called artificial intelligence and voila! The intelligent teleconference assistant (ITA).

She recognize speaker's voice and add annotation in lovely female robot voice. For example:

Someone: I like the idea
My ITA will add: [said Sanjiv]
So I know exactly who speak.

So our teleconference go like this:

Someone: I propose we put up new factory [said Sanjiv]

Someone: I disagree [countered Ramesh]

Someone: Why you disagree? [asked Gheeta]

Someone: Well...[began Ramesh, hesitating]

LL: Praveen, how is the project? [asked LL]

Someone: It's going very well? [lied Praveen]

Someone: The project is late! [accused Ramesh, and he has a point]

Someone: What do you mean[said Praveen, coyly, anger level rising]

Someone: You promise it finish last month![said Ramesh, my records confirm Praveen did promise]

Someone: Can we change subject?[said Amit, who wants to go home early]

Someone: I agree[said Shiven, while texting Gheeta secretly]

Someone: Can someone turn off ITA?[said Gheeta, who I have cut-off indefinitely]

Someone: I would like... [said Sanjiv, who never say anything useful so I put him in mute]

Someone: Is it possible... [begun Jagan, but we have run out of time. Everyone disconnect now. Bye!]

It was most entertaining meeting we had even though not productive.

[Jason]

D, how am I being dogmatic by saying people should actually understand the beliefs they deeply hold and not merely regurgitate things they've been told?

[Chamin]

Liftie,

I will have a go at building this system. But it might occasionally say:

"Ourrr deadline is Raatherrr close" [said Sanjeev][Low memory warning due to strong R]

"No lah, you mis dead lain al ray deee..." [system crashed due to too many accents. Restart system with a less multiethnic group]

[Bianca Schlimm]

What will ITA (invisible twin alien?) say when several guys sound just like Elvis?

It's HIM

it's HIM but only impersonator

it's third king, how can it be?!

[Bianca Schlimm]

Jason: I never read anything dogmatic from you

How can you stand two weeks off internet Nury?!

I bought an I-book to take to Poland with us

(You know, Poland going is old Germ tradition ha ha)

so I hope some others stay tuned.

by the way (you'r not supposed to say that in the bible belt)
where is grand-pere?
flying around he must be

[grandpa]

"The label Feminist should be reserved for women who embrace their feminine side, "

I am a feminist i like to embrass'(er) (french word for kissing ) their feminine side, like ........ front and back....

[grandpa]

"Gods portrayed as old men is so attractive to people.."

Whow, the first compliments since I started to write in these columns...

[Jason]

I know this isn't the forum for deep, philosophical and divisive topics, but let me just clear one thing up for people like D. My statement that Christians are woefully misinformed is not a snide comment, but one that is backed up by the majority of New Testament scholars and historical facts. Bart Erhman's book Jesus Interrupted deals in depth with the fact that scholars have a moderately clear understanding of who the historical Jesus was and that the majority of faithful have no idea what that is. Indeed that the clergy often times cover it up, see my Washington Post link above.

It is a fact that Christianity took an abrupt left turn at the Council of Nicaea and that even Paul's theology, the "religion about Jesus, not of Jesus" radically transformed the original message. E.P. Sanders is a highly regarded biblical scholar and Christian, I would recommend his books The Historical Figure of Jesus and Paul (tho the latter is a little more technical and a bit of a slog) for understanding how Christianity went off on a tangent.

Lastly, I have run the entire spectrum of belief. I was raised in a Christian church and I was a born-again Christian for a few years. Indeed even as little as 10 years ago I was still a believer. But now, as D would like to think, I have gone from one end of the spectrum to:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=496176600154&set=pu.8798180154&type=1&theater

Rest assured D, I do no make my comments lightly, but they are the result of 2 years of intensive research and writing; scores of books and hundreds of pages of notes. A very close family friend of mine and a deeply religion person who has spent her whole life in the church, indeed her husband was my childhood minister, has praised my research and called me a 'beacon of light, shining the light of truth onto the corruptions of religion.'

Regarding being tolerant of other people's beliefs, well why? I read recently read a quote, might have been A.C. Grayling, that said in essence "it is more disrespectful to just smile and nod than it is to engage in open and honest discussion." Only in the matter of religious faith do we give a hands-off to oddball beliefs and leave you with one question: how tolerant was religious authority throughout the ages to dissenting voices? Now the shoe is on the other foot and they don't like it much.

I leave this topic on a humourous note about tolerance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M

[Nury]

Let Jason criticize Christians if he wants to; Christians rarely fight back, and since it takes two to make a fight, it's unlikely to turn nasty.

But since we are talking about religion, did anyone see the article the The Guardian (the top UK paper) today?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jun/27/secularism-different-modernity

It basically says that for decades it was assumed that increasing modernity meant increasing secularism.

But sociologists now say that faith groups, with their passion for global justice, are among the main drivers of the push for modernity and democracy.

I wondered when scientists would finally notice this!

This has been known for decades in Latin America. But it's also true elsewhere, east and west.

Many Hong Kong people know that this community was changed forever by the great march of July 1 2003 after which various leaders resigned. Fewer know that the march organized and led by a tiny group of local Christians.

Bianca, my friends in Germany tell me a riveting story about a small group (I think from a Leipzig church) who went to pray down the Berlin Wall in 1989. The gathering grew and grew and the rest is history.

We're all imperfect, but many faith groups (whether Christian or Muslim or whatever) work very hard to make the world a better place.

So it was nice to see a media article (and the Guardian is famously anti-religion) for once not focus only on our imperfections.
*
Grandpa Fardel DOES look like God!!

http://mrjam.typepad.com/photos/meet_the_gang/christian-fardel.html

[rafanjr]

...oh gramps, wait for what Liftie might have to say to that. It might start god wars.

[Lift Lurker]

rafanjr - I have no problem if grandpa look like G-d. I think they are close in age after all.

It is a fact that Christianity took an abrupt left turn at the Council of Nicaea

Jason, can say very brief what is this left turn?

Like many people here, I also like learning about religion. Every night I read to my children their favorite bedtime book: Malleus Maleficarum.

[D.]

In your comment near the top of this discussion Jason, you order Nury to leave his Bible at home and "build the orphanage because it is the right thing to do"

I'm glad you think that spending your holidays building an orphanage for the poorest of the poor is the right thing to do.

When do you start?

[D.]

There are more than a million books on Christianity in print.

Jason has found two or three which support his view.

Wow, well, that changes everything.

[Jason]

Nury, do I criticize Christians or do I criticize the ignorance of the facts that surround beliefs? In this modern world there is no reason why people can't be informed, especially about something that is so deeply personal to so many. Alas, most never bother to open a book and just believe what they hear from the pulpit. That's a dangerous thing. I just think people should be informed and it's one of my pet peeves that so many people don't even bother to try.

LL: the left turn was the codification in the Nicaean creed that Jesus was both human and divine. Prior to this, there was a small but growing sect of Christians who believed in the divinity of Jesus; while most others just believed he was an inspired human prophet. They ultimately won at Nicaea shaping the future of Christianity and formulating the doctrine of the Trinity: father, son and holy ghost. The winners, as we know go on to write the history...or redraft sections of the bible and inserting passages to reflect their beliefs.

This knowledge is out there, hardly anyone bothers to read it.

[Jason]

D, do you think it is morally right to tie proselytizing to aid? "You can have the aid, but you most listen to our message." Or is it better just to do the right thing out of the goodness of our hearts.

Yes, I listed 2 or 3 books, because listing the 100's or 1000's out of the ones that support the "MAJORITY of NT scholarship" would just be a waste of time.

[D.]

Jason a) you didn't answer my question. I dare you to go with Nuri to africa. Or I dare say you will be busy, not have enough holiday leave etc
b) Heres another one. do you tell the rugby sevens sponsors not to print their name on the merchandise, just do it because it's the right thing to do? Do you tell the UN to take their logo off the good works they do? No you don't, you're a guy with a chip on your shoulder against one group of people who do good things.
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You say hardly any Christians know about the events at the council of Nicaea. Your claim is unsubstantiated. I can't think of a single person in my church who doesn't know about it. Church history is a normal part of Christian teaching these days. Come to my church and you'll see.

[rafanjr]

...Liftie, do you have more ITA conversations.

[Nury]

Thanks Jason, for starting this meaty discussion!

If I may interject a note of reason here, I think I know the root of the disagreement.

Jason, you have a very old fashioned view of Christianity, which may be current in Canada, I have no way of knowing.

It's not true in Hong Kong (and apparently wherever D is writing from).

Here, we all study church history and we all know about the vote at Nicaea. Our libraries have the books that you quote, Jason. We're well-read and well-educated. We have Dawkins and Hitchins, etc. We know the difference between Jesus' teaching and what's called Pauline Christianity, and so on. We're not ignorant.

Second, you have a highly outdated view of Christian charity work. In the old days (or maybe in Canada today) the main purpose may be to push religion.

But it hasn't been like that for years.

As I tried to make clear in the original post, our outreach projects are not about pushing religion.

We go and build clinics and hospitals etc. If people watch us and say, we want to be like you, that's fine.

If people watch us and say we want to remain animists or atheists, it's also fine. They're now animists/atheists but with a decent clinic or hospital.

I know you're going to absolutely hate this idea, Jason, but do consider going to a modern, intellectual church. Or mosque or synagogue or interfaith group or whatever. You'll be amazed and delighted. You'll meet warm and intelligent people, including the full spectrum of people from believers through agnostics to atheists.

There may well be a few simple believers who you can lecture to, if you feel the need.

And there ARE a couple of places left on the Africa orphanage trip! It's not too late...

[Jason]

Why do I need to go to Africa to build orphanages to prove my point? I think it is extremely noble to go to desolate places and do good things, more power to Nury and those like him and I do apologize for coming on too strong with that original comment. However, I do feel, and I am not alone, that going to these poverty stricken places to build schools, homes and hospitals...but only if you listen to their religious messages, is offensive. Aid should be given freely and because it is the right thing to do as a humanist. Forcing people to submit to preaching in return for help is just, forgive me, sleazy.

Your point B is a straw-man argument and totally irrelevant to the points and you know it.

Lastly, sure Christians know "of" the council of Nicaea, but I doubt you can find 3 people in your church that explain the intricacies of the socio-political implications of the council and its place within imperial stability, or the historical understanding both before and after in church doctrines. Especially given the series of councils that followed and the back and forth in what was the current orthodoxy/heresy of the hour, as the pendulum swung back and forth.

[Jason]

Nury, you may well be right. I know of what I saw growing up in Canada. But I also know Christian groups here in HK that DO go and push religion on their charity builds, so please forgive me if lumped you in with them.

As to the library: can I get access? ;) There are a few books I have been unable to find in the HKPL. Albeit books that reinforce my raging atheist views! :D

[Chamin]

> Christians rarely fight back
I guess this goes for the real ones. In South Asia, most Christian groups fight and attack, not just fight back. I was small when I got beaten up for discovering in a science book that the rainbow has nothing to do with God :-p. And I know of Christian groups who run day care centers for free and teach religion to kids of other religions.

[Chamin]

For me, I am fine even with going to church with my Christian friends. I think of Jesus as a nice human being, who would have slammed most Christian organizations in the US and South Asia for what they are doing.

@Nury: It is nice to hear that there are some religious groups who are better. For me, I personally prefer to leave my religion aside when I do charity.

What I have problems is with people who try to push their religions into other people's throats. Why should they push to ban same sex marriage just to follow one sentence in an old book. That book even says that we should not eat shrimp, if they try to follow it to the rule (Google for "God hates shrimp").

[ITA]

[Are you in same sex marriage Chamin? ]

[D.]

I agree Chamin. I don't mind people being atheists or whatever but I hate the way some of them push that down our throats.

Much better to just go and quietly do good things , like some people making comments above.

Being generous spirited is much better than throwing around allegations that are likely to offend some people reading this. Your choice.

[Jason]

So back to the Slutwalk...I'm all in favour. Any volunteers?

[Jason]

To ITA, so what if Chamin is? What does it matter?

[Nury]

D., your comment about being generous spirited is the wisest thing you've said.

I don't mind a meaty conversation, but I don't want this to turn into one of those discussions which end up with references to Hitler!

Jason, our church library is IN the church, so you'd have to approach the building. You may be struck by lightning!

But seriously, I have an original copy of Jesus the Jew somewhere which you may be interested in, I'll see if I can find it.

Anyone know any good acapella songs or rounds? I've been put in charge of music for the Africa trip and I need some simple songs that can get the kids singing and laughing and jumping around...

Perhaps some American campfire songs might work.

I love the idea of crossing race/ class/ culture barriers with songs and smiles.

[Bianca Schlimm]

I have songs and the music to it
but how to get it to you?

I'll check with my choir, I think there is lots of sheet music in the net

"un chinito en un bosco se perdió",
famous spanish children song. the chinese guy gets lost in the woods. so might Chinese "president" feel today at Angela Merkel's...plus fearing EHEC
:-)

[Jason]

Oh Nury, you are so close! Right author, wrong book. I need Geza Vermes' The Authentic Gospel of Jesus, if that church library might have it. Actually the last time I set foot in a church I did feel a tad uneasy; which is odd given I spent the first 18 years of my life faithfully attending.

Campfire songs: I guess you can't use Kumbaya ;) How about Bonnie lies over the ocean?

[Nury]

Jason, I'll check. Vermes is a fabulous author. We normally have a free library set up at the back, but we're moving bit by bit to Central, so everything has been packed up into boxes. May have to do it when I get back.

Bianca, thanks for the advice. I'm sure there will be some on the internet.
I'm looking for lively vocal music with lots of harmonies, but easy to learn. We won't be able to take keyboards or drums or anything, so we're going to take a guitar and bang on the desks for rhythm...

[Jason]

No problem Nury, I've been waiting months to get my hands on it, I can wait a few more weeks. Besides I am still editing the OT chapter. Thanks for checking and safe travels to Uganda.

[Bianca Schlimm]

mh... my view on religion and science is they all want to find out about the miracle of life. And yet it remains miraculous.

to do good is a very nice idea

one should not do too little of it (like I should really get my "hands dirty" some time)

but also not be too pushy about it

because humans always err

even if they try to do very very good everything has consequences that you might not be able to calculate (that is or was a special branch of sociology)

the easiest way to stay pure is to be ALONE , best in a desert, and meditate.

when you enter real life you sort of cannot avoid causing some trouble, even without wanting it at all. (some call this sin)

example is eco-gasoline, seems like it was only a good idea but not good outcome.

so one has to put up with just being a little human, erring a lot, and staying modest, yet trying to help others who want help.

[grandpa]

whow
I am lost in your arguments.
I posted this article yesterday about the waitress saving the kid with a kiss.
http://comment.straitstimes.com/showthread.php?t=47108
It might sound like a fairy tale, and out of place here
Maybe
What I see in this article ,is an act of charity, from an "ordinary person" outreaching somebody in despair, when so many were just waiting for a more final outcome..
How many people like these gather regularly in churches/ temple/synagogues but would not lend a hand to others.

Arguing about religion is one thing , living with the principles of one's religion is another thing
Unhappily ,wars are led by people who pray regularly,( too many people know that they do prey )and religions have proven in the past to be leading Humanity to the path of discord, wars and human destruction,even genocide (Central and South America)
It was true in the past , it is still rue today:
French wars of religion,crusades,evangelisation,
"GOT mit uns"
Does it sound familiar? It was engraved in the belts of Nazy soldiers

In God we trust,( others pay cash)
How many soldiers gather to pray God ( or should I say their God) before launching an attack on innocent civilians..
It still happens everyday`

Going to Africa to help build an orphanage is a beautiful way to show generosity.
Kissing back to life an unknown kid armed with a weapon, is a true act of generosity, maybe the ultimate....

None of these act are religious , they are acts of charity..

I am shocked by the quantity of money raised for charity overseas by people who would not help their neighbor in needs.
Then we see big advertising "We the .... of ............ have raise d xxxxxxxxmillions in donation for the poor in A........ca , or A......ca"

I was 8 or 9 when our teachers sold us stamps to put in a book . when the book was full , it meant that we have given enough money to save an african child from starvation.
We were so proud....
I was 18 when our army set out to BOMB them.....

All the arguments I read here are just ...arguments ..
Too many people hide their hypocrisy behind religion

[Chamin]

@ITA:

If I find the right one, even the sex won't matter :-p

What if I am? What if I am not? What if you are :-p ? Should your government treat you differently? Should you not be allowed in planes, lifts, or hospitals?

@Nury:

Home on the Range (not the long version, though) is easy to learn, and goes well in Asia. In Japan, It's a small world is good. For a campfire, Hokey Cokey is ideal.

Back to the topic: what can be good songs for a slutwalk?

[Chamin]

Jason won't be struck by lightening; there is a long line of child-abusing priests in the "to be zapped" list, before his or my turn comes.

[Jason]

Chamin, how about Joe Cocker and or Tom Jones "You can leave your hat on"

[grandpa]

"Grandpa Fardel DOES look like God!!"
That is bad news..
Do you mean that I shall end up like Jesus ??

"if grandpa look like G-d. I think they are close in age after all."

Age is like altitude.
Some people can reach higher ones..
most people will not ,
LL ,you laugh now, I hope that you will still have the ability to laugh if/ when you reach there .

Everyday when I wake up ; I am happy
When I look back at my life , I am happy
When I look forward to my future, I am happy
When I look at the present , I am not happy at all;
I am trapped in a dead-end situation with No solution in sight

Sure, I shall really laugh ,when I get out of this .
Just thinking about this ,it is very funny

"Physically we complement each other, like toothbrush and toothpaste, like camera and film, like justin bieber and his fans, etc."
It looks to me that we physically complement each other like a bolt and a nut, water and a glass,

Angela
I loved your comments about the apples..
Aren't you the one who gave the first one to Adam ??

[Bianca Schlimm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh2YFcaRC1E

Nury I send you xerox copies to Uganda of real a cappella.
I mail you.

Ch: I don't know any of your songs. But keep throwing bananas!

[ITA]

To ITA, so what if Chamin is? What does it matter? [Said Jason. To which response is: I am collecting background information to analyse the responses. When person say they are against electric chair death penalty, it can be wise to ask if that person is in death row, to understand where is he coming from. Or going to.]

[Lift Lurker]

ITA seem to have connected to this website without my permission. I am trying to find out how I can disconnect her.

[Said Lift Lurker, in his very deep manly voice]

[Lift Lurker]

Should you not be allowed in planes, lifts, or hospitals?

No one should be allowed in planes.

Chamin, do you also agree to threesome marriage? Or 1 man 5 wife marriage?

[Bianca Schlimm]

ITA: how old is deeply manly voice lurking???

why does noone ask me if I am for one women three men marriage??? I would not MIND so much!

"Chauvi-Rafan": does wife iron your underwear?

[Bianca Schlimm]

Nury:

I just made you look forward to eating "Schweinebraten" in Mecklenburg. (pig meat roastbeef?)
:-)

[Karuna]

Graham/Liftie,

Are you married to someone who has discovered that she really is a lesbian ?

.....Just collecting background information to analyse the response, to understand where you come from or going to with this antagonism towards homosexuals ?

:-D

[said Karuna, shaking his head]

[Lift Lurker]

LL ,you laugh now, I hope that you will still have the ability to laugh if/ when you reach there

grandpa, I am only teasing. Our age difference is not so great.

why does noone ask me if I am for one women...

[Said Bianca, deadly serious]

[Lift Lurker]

antagonism towards homosexuals ?

I can only speak for Graham [said Lift Lurker, slightly confuse]. I not have antagonism towards homosexual, especially the big hairy ones who can break my neck (and let us not forget the males ones).

It is the institution of marriage that is my preciousssss. It is almost as important to civilization as Lifts [said Lift Lurker, honestly with very pure heart]

[Chamin]

Liftie,

Where I was born, they used to have threesome marriage. One wife for two brothers. If there is a towel on the bedroom door, the husband owning that towel is in. The other one does not enter (in Computer Science this is called a semaphore :^p).

I think one has to be really stupid to have 5 wives. How can anyone have time for and understand so many of them?

I think people can easily understand their partners at least in half of the same sex marriages :-p

[Bianca Schlimm]

Karuna:
you shake your head up and down or left and right??
and what does it (all) mean?
the mystery of life?

"half of the same sex marriages..."
Now I am also confused...

Asia, go to sleep!

[Brother Schlimm]

ToWEL is IN
:-))

[Brother Schlimm]

Ch:... My Uru has quite a cute brother!

LL: You think I should marry him?

I mean my Uru.

[grandpa]

I was teasing back.......
but my argument is still valid....
Since you do not know my age, you cannot know the difference......

[rafanjr]

...old and older seem to be close, so one of you is old and the other one is the older...

...ITA shouldn't be disconnected Liftie, its so helpful in removing/adding to the confusion.

...Bianca, i don't wear underwear, I'm like superman and batman, pants first then "overwear". Nonetheless its dried under the sun and i wear it still warm. No need for ironing, its not so green.

[ITA]

[ITA online. Liftie still asleep]

[Lift Lurker]

The other one does not enter (in Computer Science this is called a semaphore

[averred Chamin]

Semaphore? Or mutex?

[said Liftie. Time for another war?]

[sej]

LL,

Software Development is in my very distant past, but if I don't miss my guess, this is a semaphore, as the towel is owned by the competing threads, whereas if it were a mutex, the towel would be owned by the shared resource.

[Lift Lurker]

sej,

My argument come from lexical analysing: mutexes is about "mute" and "xes" (anagram for you-know-wat). Chamin example seem related: is for muting argument about "xes".

But I will let Dr. Chamin our resident expert have the last word (with appropriate academic reference back to Edsger)

[Mike]

Song for the sing along

I'm Going Crazy Song

Chorus
I'm going crazy why don't you come along
I'm going crazy just singing this song

Once I had a little dog and all it ate was cans and when those little puppies came they came them pots and pans!

Chorus

Once I had a little cat and all it ate was yarn and when those little kittens came they came with sweaters on!

Chorus

Once I had a little frog and all it ate was flies and when those little tapoles came they came with GREAT BIG EYES!

Chorus

When Mary had a little Lamb the doctor was surprised, when old Mcdonald had a farm the doctor nearly died!

Chorus

[Archi]

I am disappointed in your predictable and deliberately ingnorant column. You could Google the Slutwalk and easily find out that it was originally organized in response to an idiotic statement by Toronto Police Constable Michael Sanguinetti who stated that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized." It was a protest by women and men against victim blaming. Any person who slightly understands the concept of free will can understand that we are accountable for our actions. This is what makes us "civilized."

[Chamin]

Liftie,

You are right. The situation is Mutex (unless threesome is acceptable), and semaphore is just a way to handle it :o)

[Chamin]

Hm, I too don't remember the exact terminology for these. But Sej is correct because the towel is owned by the competing threads.

If there is a towel not owned by an authorized thread, I think murder could be on the card :-p

[Bianca Schlimm]

Mike: Nice! A poet!! You have a melody?

Ch: Murder cart, the game to win millions!
might make LL rich. or you

[In agnosticism we doubt]

Proselytizing is inherently offensive. It is akin to door to door peddling of astrology with a loyalty program attached.

If the purpose of the trip to Uganda is to build an orphanage, my hat is off to you. It is more than I have ever done.

If the purpose of the trip is proselytizing, it is the height of arrogance for one to think one's form of astrology is better than another's paganism or pantheism, or animism (or competing form of astrology).

If the purpose of the trip is both building an orphanage and a little proselytizing should the opportunity arise, perhaps one should forget the proselytizing. It is unseemly and not particularly altruistic to mix building an orphanage (good) with opportunistic proselytizing (bad).

The ethical dilemma is if we have to take the good (orphanage) with the bad (proselytizing). Can we justify the bad by delivering the good if the good would not otherwise be delivered without the bad?

Jason is right. Deliver the good. Only. Drop the opportunism.

[Hamlet]

@Anonymous commentator above:

Just deliver the humorous comments.
If you see opportunities to criticize innocent people, resist.
Deliver the good. Only.
Drop the opportunism.

(ha ha hoist with your own petard!)

[Vaibhav]

Wow. That is some discussion.
My 2 pence - I'm agnostic.
There is good book by Arun Shourie (which is sadly banned in India) Worshipping False Gods.

Maybe Jason might get more cannon fodder maybe he wont. have only read excerpts and it holds my interest.

[Angela]

The comments are really getting more attention than the column :-)

Agree that readers should just deliver the humor and avoid preaching, especially if it is about preaching... To preach against preaching, ay, there's the rub.

[Andy]

article that appeared good enough to be read so that adds to knowledge when reading

[Chubby Checker]

Some Polish women walk around beach in ugly bras. I am appalled! Either take it off or buy something out of swimming suit material turquoise colour please! Heads Eastern Europe!